Email from former member to ESN:

The Worldwide News [name changed to WCG Today in the  U.S. in Feb. 2005 and changed again to Together in May 2006] carried a May 2004 article about a couple who has a ministry (although in the WN they refer to it as their "company"). They are definitely Worldwiders as they say so in the article and it is stated they attended AC in the 1970's. They talk about how their life was so messed up before they "came into"¹ the WCG. Now they are so healed. (The healing thing is inline with the Charismatic jargon.) They quit their jobs to go into the ministry. The article is all what we must "do" to be loved by God. No grace there! Again I just wondered how long they had been with WCG? For those still involved with WCG (older members) it makes this spin just all the more of a hook. Everything is all brand new now. Forget the past... get over it already! Also, how ironic for them to be talking about depression and mental illness. Scary that they could be talking to those who became unstable because of the abuse of WCG. What a trip, eh? Also the whole giving up of their jobs because they believe God has called them into this ministry. Hmm... Sounds very much like the old WCG. Remember all the things we were supposed to give up to do what God wanted? The lingo sounds much like Herb and his "Human Potential" views.² So sad they talk all about Jesus, however I didn't see much grace in any of it. Just a whole lot of new works thrown in. Same old WCG. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

I did decide to write them. Well, he wrote me back, but the tone of his letter and accusations about my character reminded me of my Dear Joe [Tkach] letters in the 90's. How very sad. But I suppose we would have to expect that from a member who had been in over 30 years. Now I understand why he has had, or still has, emotional problems. God help him for deciding to stay with WCG!!

The reason I wrote him was because I thought just maybe he was a recent newcomer to WCG and since he was all into healing and the abuse thing, he should be aware of the revisionist WCG. His response was definitely one of unbelievable defense and quite typical of those who have no clue really to what they truly believe. In reality they have no freedom in Jesus Christ. If he really has the freedom he so eloquently talks about, he wouldn't have any need to be defensive. He could have just said he was working through it all or something normal! But that is not possible for those stuck into the new Jesus mind control.

He said that his ministry has nothing to do with WCG??? How amazing is this? All about Jesus, eh? Jesus equals WCG now! Same old stuff in new language is all.

Tiny little email I sent to him, even wishing him well with his ministry. Imagine if I had attacked him? I have no plans to re-email him. Although I am glad I did. It just tells me more and more how dangerous the new/old WCG really is.  

Adrianne (former member of WCG)
British Columbia, Canada

Adrianne's first email to this WCG member:

Hi There

As a former member of the WCG I was curious as to when you became affiliated with this group. Do you know the true history of the WCG, and not just the revisionist viewpoint?

I think you are doing a wonderful service, however there are many wrecked lives out there because of the abuse heaped on them throughout the years involved with WCG.

Take care

Adrianne

First reply back from WCG member:

I am guessing that you found my article in the Worldwide News though you are separated from the WCG. Apparently, that would mean you continue to read its material, drawing its funds and resources for your own purpose. Perhaps you just heard of us. However, that is not a present issue.

I have been affiliated with the WCG for 34 years. I am aware of things that have changed (are you?) and things that have not. I am well acquainted with many indiscretions (to use a mild word) of many who have passed through WCG portals. I am also free to attend with any church I so choose, and do so. I am also free to speak boldly of that which is not God's way. You see, as my material says, I am free in Jesus Christ, not in WCG. I am also free to forgive, and in fact Jesus would have it so. I am also free to choose my fellowship and my friends. I am also aware of the abuses of many churches, both smaller and mainline denominations. My fellowship with the WCG has nothing to do with my wife's and my present ministry.

You are right. There are many wrecked lives out there because of the WCG - however, we each must bear the cross put before us. Choices and decisions are made by everyone on every side. May I suggest that you gather those you know together, and we can bring Jesus' liberating message of forgiveness to them. It is not a call to WCG, but a call to Jesus. If you would like to call and discuss things, you apparently have our information, and I would welcome the opportunity to "talk Jesus."

Lastly, it seems as though you are someone who may have difficulty clarifying what real forgiveness is and unraveling the weave of forgiveness, accountability, reconciliation and trust. The WCG is not an issue for me, though it apparently seems to be one for you. I would be glad to discuss Jesus with you anytime, and we would welcome the opportunity to meet with any and many of the hurt who are out there. This is Jesus' message, not any church's, though it should be - leastwise if one reads Luke 24:47-48 the way I do.

Keep talkin' Jesus, Adrianne.
Harry

Some comments from ESN on the above letter:

"I am well acquainted with many indiscretions (to use a mild word)"

Yes, it is a mild word compared to stronger (and truer) words such as: deception, exploitation, moral depravity, financial excesses, corruption, betrayal, devastation.

"I am also free to attend with any church I so choose, and do so." 

Why do WCG members talk so much about how they are "free to attend any church now?" Do other Christians make a habit of going from one church to the next? Or is this member simply talking about attending other churches to speak?

"Choices and decisions are made by everyone on every side."

To a former member or exiter those words would sound very close to saying that it was the members' fault that they found themselves in the WCG and not as a result of deliberate mind control techniques and coercive persuasion. 

"Lastly, it seems as though you are someone who may have difficulty clarifying what real forgiveness is and unraveling the weave of forgiveness, accountability, reconciliation and trust. The WCG is not an issue for me, though it apparently seems to be one for you. " 

Did anyone pick this attitude up from Adrianne's first email?  

Adrianne to ESN:

I told you I wouldn't email Harry, however I changed my mind. Harry chooses to be involved in abuse ministry (sadly, though, it seems for profit--selling all that Jesus paraphernalia³). He may be doing a lot of good, although if he truly understood the whole picture of WCG he would probably be appalled! I am sending him links. I do think, though, that those involved with WCG for the most part could not be bothered with studying anything unless WCG sanctions it. 

I guess the whole healing issue and how he is involved with it just so bothers me. I could go on and on to him about how I believe that being in WCG and having a healing ministry is a conflict of interest really. I mean dealing with recovery from abuse? How dare they!! 

It is just unfortunate that WCG people will always have the mindset that we are bitter and angry. And like we don't have the right to be anyway? Go figure.... But they have been fed this line forever. Sometimes I think their view of what a Christian is all about is so un-attainable! Rose Colored glasses are always in style.

Adrianne

Input from Jackie (former WCG member):

There is really no talking to these people [those in WCG]. Harry is evidently so rooted in the WCG that he really has no intention of seeing things any differently or really listening to anyone else's view and judging them unforgiving is sooo typical. Of course I'm not convinced they don't know what they are doing. Somewhere down deep everyone has a conscience. Arrogant to say we don't forgive because we speak the truth boldly, and that's funny cause he says in his letter he isn't afraid to speak boldly. hmmmn...hilarious and pitiful at the same time.

Jackie (former WCG member)
Tennessee

Adrianne's 2nd email to WCG Member:

Dear Harry,

My email to you was sent with the best of intentions. Since you are involved with recovery from abuse, I thought it important to write you. My thoughts were that you were new to WCG and did not fully understand the abuse involved and the psychological harm done to so many through the control and false teaching of the WCG.

And yes I am very concerned about what is written both in the WWN and WCG in general both good and not so good. I have many acquaintances, friends and family members some long time members of WCG and some involved with various splinter COG groups.

Since both you and your wife choose to minister to those dealing with recovery from abuse, it is imperative that all of us involved in healing ministry understand the Bible based cultic thinking mindset and the spiritual damage involved. Unfortunately the present WCG cannot make up for the abuses of the past, that is obvious, but pat answers and pretending this harm does not exist anymore and so let's all just "Let Jesus forgive and forget" is neither wise nor fair to those involved. The Jesus of scripture would never be so blinded and cruel in this regard.

As you know forgiveness does not mean discounting the abuse that one has suffered and at times true and lasting forgiveness means a permanent separation from the persons and/or institutions that abused him/her. A woman who has been sexually, physically and emotionally abused by her husband can forgive him, but in order to truly heal she must not live with him nor have any relationship with him.

What if a person who had been involved with WCG or another religious abusive group chose to reach out to your ministry on these issues?? Would they be free to speak out about the abuses they suffered and name the perpetrator? Or would they be told they are unloving and seem to have a problem with forgiveness?? without even knowing anything about that persons background or history. Please forgive me Harry, but that is exactly what you assumed about me.

Your words to me were.....
Lastly, it seems as though you are someone who may have difficulty clarifying what real forgiveness is and unraveling the weave of forgiveness, accountability, reconciliation and trust.

I know nothing of you and your ministry, and have no authority to judge your intentions, however I do know that your ministry is promoting healing and grace to the hurting! I pray for that healing and grace to also be extended to those broken in spirit, who were mistreated in the name of Jesus Christ. Please see Ezekiel 34.

Here are a few websites that give insight into this subject: ...

Again I thank you for your time, and do indeed wish you well in your healing ministry.

Adrianne

Second reply back from WCG member (not all has been posted):

Since you know nothing of our ministry. Let me explain some things to clarify. Yes, I made some assumptions. I believe them to be fair assumptions based on your approach to our ministry and the tenor of your inquiry. Your intent seemed to be to make sure that we were teaching that which was correct, and that we be made aware of the abuses of the WCG. When someone approaches me to inform me of the abuses of the WCG, or anyone else, as far as I am concerned, they are perpetuating the filth and spoiling my conscience. Had this email that I respond to now been the tone of the first email, I would have responded differently. Had the first email asked me how we deal with issues of long past abuse by organizations with power on people's lives, I would have answered accordingly. You immediately asked if I was aware of the abuses of the WCG.

So, your responsibility lies with your approach to the inquiry; my responsibilities lie with my own awareness of the often inadequate medium of email and my assumption that you were like the many who have sought to dump junk into my brain as some sort of pursuit of justice, and to sustain the vilification of the WCG so they can be righteous in their anger.

 ...We make no apologies that true forgiveness isn't present until one can wish well and prosperity for their former abuser/perpetrator. That includes organizations. This positive desire for the other's better benefit does NOT preclude an acknowledgment of the action of hurt that were done to my wife, myself, or to whomever by whomever in their lives. Forgiveness doesn't mean friendship. Forgiveness puts a different wavelength into society. Forgiveness heals. I think I mentioned Luke 24:47-48. It is forgiveness that leads to repentance, and we believe that. We never teach "forgive and forget." That seemed to be an assumption of what we do on your part, however, I can easily allow for the shortcomings of email on that regard.

Our ministry has nothing to do with the WCG. We have given workshops for WCG congregations as well as other churches, colleges and secular groups. The WCG, as you said, cannot make up for past abuses. ... Change is the only way, not to make up for, but to demonstrate that past abuses are not present abuses. No one can make up for past abuses - and in your life as in mine, we have abused others. The degree is not at issue. We are abused and abusers. We are oppressed and oppressors. We all manipulate and seek our own way. This is the reason Jesus went to the cross. He forgave those who put him up there. He forgave those who necessitated his being there. He was free from their power, and gave his life willingly. That is forgiveness. So the making up for past abuse is merely the unhealthy hope for a better past - such an empty hope must be surrendered.

To not forgive, and to not forgive the WCG in its earnest efforts at change, is as wrong as the abuses suffered at the policies and practices of the WCG. The WCG can be forgiven and its abuses remembered, but nor memorialized. Those abused can be set free by forgiveness, but it is a process, and anger, hurt, accusation, acknowledgment are all part of the abuse. Return to fellowship is not a criteria, but if the WCG seeks to be conciliatory and the abused person rebuffs such reconciliation, then we believe that forgiveness has not yet come. Reconciling does not mean rejoining.

Some additional education may be important here. As an organization, the WCG is not presently any more abusive than many mainline and non-denom churches that exist, as well as many businesses. To continue to hang the reputation of the past as the benchmark of the future is a mistake.

...The reason they are in the workshop is to engender ways to break past things that stand in their way. Remember, people are forgiven, not acts. We do not make judgments. We seek to raise consciousness of forgiveness to a level that Jesus seeks to take each individual to. No one has a problem with forgiveness and everyone has a problem with forgiveness. Part of the issue in giving the workshop is that so many churches and pastors think they know what forgiveness is all about, because it is so basic to Christianity. Fact is - it's a dynamic and ever expanding way of life.

*Please forgive me Harry, but that is exactly what you assumed about me.* Forgive me, Adrianne. I offered you to the option to call us and discuss what we do. We can also send you outline material of content and describe some of the techniques (tho' they make take a little bit of demonstration and practice to understand) and we have informational brochures. You have not availed yourself of any of those options. ....

You are well intentioned, no doubt. Your first email approached the subject from a "are you aware" perspective. Our qualifications were listed for you: our experiences, educational background, practical usage, access to testimonials and comments, etc. Apparently it was not enough for you, and so be it. Whatever I can provide for you in the way of that which would make you feel more comfortable with what we do, we would be glad to furnish anything appropriate for that purpose.

You wrote: *I know nothing of you and your ministry, and have no authority to judge your intentions, however I do know that your ministry is promoting healing and grace to the hurting! I pray for that healing and grace to also be extended to those broken in spirit, who were mistreated in the name of Jesus Christ. Please see Ezekiel 34.* I do not know why you wrote this paragraph. It reads very strangely to my ears. When you found those other website resources that you sent me, did you write them an email as you did us? Or was it our association with WCG that prompted the email? What would such an action say? Actually, you do not know that our ministry promotes healing and grace to the hurting. I am not quite if you mean that we do it, but we don't. ... Why do you separate the "hurting" to whom our ministry goes to from "those broken in spirit" that you pray for? You may not feel you have the authority to judge us, but I believe you have certainly formed some sort of opinion that you need to clarify. You seem to be apprehensive, and even suspect, of what we do. Mind you, I am not saying that you are, but that you SEEM to be. It is in your language as written (and admittedly, as it reads to me). You did not ask us about our forgiveness theology or how we formulated it. You did not ask about what we teach. You said some unusual things for someone who knows nothing about our ministry.

I have read Ez. 34. Have you read Luke 24:47-48? I believe I mentioned it in the last email. it was very relevant to what we do. Reading it or not seems indicative of an approach to what you read. BTW, so you are clear, yes I still believe in the fact that we have a personal responsibility in our lives, and forgiveness, quite frankly, is not even dependant on whether the other party changes. It is done by the one offended. The behavior of others cannot be controlled by what we do or not do. This is also why we don't forget. Forgetting leads to the same things happening again.

We do a good job, Adrianne. And we have dealt quite well with past WCG hurts among with those who have brought them to us. Thank you for the website resources. And why not do more than "wish us well" in our ministry? Why not pray for its abounding success? Why not become part of that success?

Harry

Comments from ESN on the above letter:

Notice how this answer from Harry was whipped back in the sender's face with a very defensive tone, almost like she had set off a time bomb. Did our readers feel that this came across like "Don't touch God's anointed"? We are not trying to downgrade anyone, and perhaps this man has some unhealed pain lurking beneath the surface, but it should make all of us ask, "What on earth has happened to the members in Worldwide Church of God?" His ministry states: "People learn the God-given purpose of anger and fear and the appropriate, balanced uses of these emotions." Did he use a balanced approach in his response to this former member? Yes, forgiveness is important in healing, but the way it was presented was anything but inviting. If we are so defensive, shouldn't it say something about our own healing? And is it wise to be looking to those within WCG to offer healing to us? (Note: Read this part in another article where we say that the abuser can have no part in the recovery of their victims.)

There is nothing "judgmental" in asking these questions. They need to be asked. WCG never allowed members to ask questions. But why is it so hard to ask certain questions of present WCG members?

We hesitated to even post any of the reply, but wanted our readers to see the mindset. This is not an isolated response. Last year ESN received email from a present member (who called herself a "former member") who was choosing to go in and out of WCG to "help those still inside" with some type of healing sessions. There's nothing wrong with trying to help people to heal, especially the youth who have suffered horrendously, but can we do our most effective outreach within the establishment that abused us in the first place? This person even told how they had received the promise of "financial support" from a "present WCG minister." When asked what control this minister would have and why he still remained in WCG, and also if other ministers might be staying because of their financial benefits, this person became extremely defensive and accused us of saying that all WCG ministers were doing this. I guess questions are not allowed to be asked.

It has been brought out that those members who stayed in WCG are actually like "communists serving their loyalty." They were not aware of the true goings on in the organization that they have been involved with. Those who have left WCG, and who have talked about the truth of what they witnessed, and have asked pertinent questions, are those who have not succumbed to the cult mind control techniques, nor the propaganda.

I think most exiters would agree that this former member was not the enemy of this present WCG member. Still, why this kind of defensive reply? WCG members seem very sensitive to former members, whom they think are still angry, or who just want to ask a few questions. There is no doubt that present members have been preached at by their WCG leaders (since the changes) about this very subject. 

In reading all this, some may be reminded of how the late J. Vernon McGee often said that more and more Christians think they can take some little course and get quick answers to all their problems. There are so many today who think one can use certain "methods" and everything will be fine. They do not understand the deep trauma which results from being in a destructive religious group. There is no short-cut (or short course) to this kind of healing. An "I love Jesus" bandage cannot be slapped over the wound to make everything okay. The wound has to first be cleaned. 

Many exiters remember the scoldings and put-downs (and worse) that we received from those in high positions in WCG, along with their letting us know that it was being "done in love." Today they tell us it is "done with grace." Somehow it doesn't seem to add up. Their dealings with former members often leave others with a bruised feeling of not measuring up, not saying the right thing, being guilty. A "How dare you?" kind of attitude. Certainly not words of comfort or compassion. Do they even understand how they are coming across? Needless to say this former member felt this present member's reply was worse than she expected and she has no desire to write him anymore. If this is the fruit of the "new" WCG, it appears to be anything but new, just wrapped in a different package. 

Discovering the member is a minister!

The same day this article was posted ESN discovered (through an online search) that the member whom Adrianne corresponded with is also an assistant pastor of his WCG congregation. (His WCG email address, WCG pastor list, location, phone number, etc. were checked out to make sure it was the same person and it was.) Perhaps this helps us now to understand much better the response that was received. See below for more responses on this.

Adrianne to ESN:

What a shyster. A hidden agenda for sure. If he was honest he would have told me that he was a pastor. This guy is very, very slippery and so is the WCG. I mean in the WWN they didn't say a thing about him being a minister of WWCG, just that he was a member that attended WCG. It's also odd that he has to be making a profit on his ministry. I guess WCG is not paying him enough, unless of course he is one of those non-salaried guys. 

It is obvious he has no clue as to what the Grace of God is all about. He certainly talks the talk, just like they all do, and I am sure his seminars sound so good too. I remember how the WCG ministers sounded to me way back, and how utterly convincing they can be. Interestingly when I checked his newsletters I found them to have an uncanny resemblance to the WCG old style HWA letters. It is creepy!!

It occurred to me that neither one of them must need the Grace of Jesus Christ. They are using so many other psychological methods to perfect themselves. They sound more like Mormons than Christians. All sorts of human potential mumbo jumbo and how to take charge of your life. We are broken people, sinners for sure, and I for one am glad that our Lord provided his grace unconditionally undeserved and totally FREE. How wonderful I no longer have to struggle with all that stuff they are advertising.

I'm glad he responded as he did. It just exposes the whole thing. The mouth definitely speaks from the heart. 

Adrianne

Input from Jackie:

I found all this correspondence very interesting. I think its wonderful that somebody out there sees the true mentality of the WCG "ministers." I see how they haven't changed at all. I knew this when I left. And one of the frustrating things to me is how everyone that wasn't affiliated with the WCG "thinks" they have change. Their attitude is "well maybe they DO have a long way to go," and in the next sentence they are saying that "those who left are those who just couldn't get with their program."⁴ I think its a miracle anybody can sort through their crap. They are so good at circling⁵ when things are presented to them straightforwardly. Every time I see that I see what looks like a cover-up. Their own inability to pay the price for the "indiscretions" makes me think this guy is also guilty [or feeling guilty] and that is why he's trying too hard to protect himself and "other" perpetrators. There really needs to be more voices out there with the courage to call a spade a spade. I get so sick of everyone dancing around the crap they are guilty of. They don't need protection. They need exposure!

As I was reading his email response, I saw that this guy thinks he has to round all of "them" up to "inform" Adrianne of their ministry and the facts about it, their way!! One can easily see how they can prey on people who perhaps have battled with guilt all their lives, even taught to them in their formative years, and then this guy comes out with this spiel which makes it difficult to confront. After all, aren't they trying? Aren't they doing the best they can? Maybe we former members don't have all the facts? And aren't they talking Jesus??!?! Nobody is perfect and so on and so on. And then again since this guy also needs healing as you pointed out, he also needs to face himself and his own sin.

I'm glad Adrianne wrote back to that guy again. I figure every time he has to tell his story he's nailing another nail in his coffin. He's used to not being challenged by anybody and is so ready with anybody outside of the "fold" to attack them with his defensive manner. As I said before, he's covering up for himself. Being nice to people like him will only work against the person trying to help--unless he has the courage to follow through to the bitter end. I hope somebody does someday.

When I read this correspondence it just brought back to me some of the conversations I tried to have with some of the WCG ministers just before I left. The "pastor" that was in [city removed] Tennessee, and is in fact still there, told me he was sick and tired of me.

Jackie
Tennessee

Comments from ESN:

What is problematic is how this member ("pastoral assistant") has started up this healing ministry, which Worldwiders can partake of, yet he has remained in the WCG. This in spite of the fact that most ministers who were in for many years were no doubt part and parcel of the same ones who abused the flock. This is not to say that perpetrators can't change, but for them to offer healing workshops for their formerly abused flock presents many questions; e. g., he says, "forgiveness doesn't mean friendship." Why then is he maintaining a friendship with the WCG hierarchy?? He goes on to say, "To not forgive, and to not forgive the WCG in its earnest efforts at change, is as wrong as the abuses suffered at the policies and practices of the WCG." This skirts the true issues and is like a slap in the face to those who remember the manner in which the changes were presented, the revisions, the cover-ups, and the whitewashing of HWA. If this is the "change" WCG is putting forth, they are sorry changes indeed. 

He brought up the topics of forgiveness and reconciliation, saying "people are forgiven, not acts." Diane Langberg (counselor of survivors of sexual abuse) says, "To talk about forgiveness is to talk about sin, for that is what is in need of the forgiveness."⁵  This member (assistant pastor) says: "if the WCG seeks to be conciliatory and the abused person rebuffs such reconciliation, then we believe that forgiveness has not yet come." Diane says, "...perpetrators can often be dangerous, and a hasty reconciliation can have fatal consequences."⁶   

How do his words: "we have all abused others" come across to former members of the WCG? That we are in the same boat as the leaders who abused us. Yet, do most members of the WCG actually remember abusing other members in the way they were abused by their leaders--with exploitation, deceit, sexual, emotional and financial abuse, causing them to feel helpless, insignificant, guilty and full of shame? 

Finally, did this member (pastor) ever answer Adrianne's first question: "Do you know the true history of the WCG, and not just the revisionist viewpoint?" Did he mention Herbert Armstrong and how it was he that started the whole system into action? No, he gave some spin control answer, even going in a different direction that focused on "we have all abused and manipulated others; we all must forgive." This sounds very familiar to what has been printed in recent Worldwide Newses. 

Since this man never left WCG--even continuing to pastor--others ask how he could truly understand the extreme betrayal and deep losses that those who did leave have experienced. If he had left during the changes--finding out the truth about WCG's past and denouncing the whole scheme as the work of a charlatan--and then years later started up a Christian healing ministry with no ties whatsoever to WCG, we might have seen an entirely differently response in this correspondence. But we have seen that this isn't the way WCG usually works. 

Worldwide Church of God has always had to re-invent themselves to survive the times. Their cover today is a quiet little ecumenical religion that doesn't make a fuss. But the mindset is the same.

Jackie decides to email the minister:

After the above, Jackie decided to email Harry (not letting him know she was a former WCG member). Following is what transpired with that correspondence. 

Jackie to ESN:

I did my own test on Harry. I just thought you might find this interesting.

Jackie's first email to the minister:

Hey I found your site and I LOVE Jesus. I just wondered if your ministry is a personal ministry or are you affiliated with a specific church group. I'm careful as I have seen much deception in ministries. Thanks!

Jackie

Reply back from the minister:

Jackie -

May I apologize for answering your email so late in the game. I had thought I responded, and apparently, in the interim as we relocate to New Mexico, [sic] I see that I neglected to respond.

My organization is independent of existing churches, mainstream or non-denominational. Personally, I have a fellowship I attend with, but maintain no particular denominational or organizational loyalties.

My basic premise is simply that God is on the throne. There is too much that we, as humans, do not know. Unfortunately, we do not know how much we do not know, and so we think we know a lot of what there is to know.

Harry

Comments from ESN on the above email to Jackie:

Notice Harry's comment about how there is a "fellowship" he attends, but he doesn't admit it is the WCG or that he is presently the "pastoral assistant" in his area. He previously told Adrianne that he had been "affiliated with the WCG for 34 years." An online search showed he was not only a member, but an assistant pastor. Why does he avoid mentioning the name Worldwide Church of God"? 

Input from Adrianne on the minister's above email to Jackie:

What the heck does this mean anyway???? "Unfortunately, we do not know how much we do not know, and so we think we know a lot of what there is to know." Sounds as if he is talking about himself. Sheesh!

Written in the new WCG vernacular Harry can get away with it, but it is deceptive. But why are we surprised? Isn't that the way WCG has always behaved. He has a ministry apart from WCG in the sense that it is not operated or funded by WCG, he loves Jesus now as all Churches do, and he is a member of WCG (but no need to say that).

My opinion is that WCG continues to lie; however, they have set it up that if you ask other denominations they will say... huh? what are you talking about? WCG is changed!!

I was reading Harry's newsletter and noticed how he had a quote from a pastor (only giving the city). This pastor is the WWCG pastor in the same church Harry is associate pastor in! In fact he is Harry's pastor!! Interestingly enough, no WCG next to his name. Seems as if Harry doesn't want others to know this!!

Interestingly in checking Harry's newsletters, I found them to have an uncanny resemblance to the WCG old style HWA Co-Worker letters. It is creepy!!

Adrianne

Jackie 2nd email to the minister:

Dear Harry,

Thanks for answering!. Don't' worry I wasn't holding a time clock. I agree God is on his Throne! and He is in control. I like that. I would really like to know the name of your fellowship just because I'm curious and because I figure it doesn't really matter too much anyway. Would you mind telling me? I just know lots of them won't really "tolerate" any lack of allegiance to their doctrines. I'm always interested to know of the ones that will. Thanks.

Jackie

Reply back from the minister:

Jackie -

At present we fellowship with the Worldwide Church of God, a Pasadena based organization⁸ that has undergone a major doctrinal over haul. Their theology is sound, but "Jesus is Lord," and not any church, and all theologies are incomplete, including my own. Whatever differences I have, I don't generally [sic] speak of them, but I do get the chance to educate those in the congregation where I attend, presently in .... NY, where I preach and am Christian Education Director and Discipleship Training Minister. 

God has instructed [sic] my preaching to be about God's hope and power, so that is where I stay, until God changes or expands the mission.

I wouldn't say there is a lack of allegiance, but I am with a congregation where I can breathe the Lord's air, at least. Hopefully, churches are always growing, and this one is, however much further it needs to go.

Harry

Comments from ESN:

Did Harry ever admit he was an "associate pastor" of the WCG? No. He's only "fellowshipping" there. As Adrianne mentioned, Harry, in one of his newsletters, posted a quote from his pastor, but no word that this man was his pastor. He only said it was a "pastor." Why the subtle deception? For some reason Harry couldn't just come out and say the words, "Yes, I am a pastoral assistant in [such and such a city]. The name of my church is the Worldwide Church of God. My pastor is so and so. He's quoted in my newsletter. I will continue on with my ministerial duties after the WCG headquarters relocates me from New York to New Mexico." 

While Harry also says he "wouldn't say there is a lack of allegiance," The Worldwide News did not reveal that Harry still holds to HWA beliefs. Evidently WCG doesn't care what their pastors (or members) believe. Keep reading. 

The minister holds to HWA beliefs:

In the meantime, another former WCG member⁹ emailed Harry asking what he believed in regard to heaven, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, Christ's return and hell. This person did not reveal that she was a former WCG member. She found that Harry's beliefs don't line up with the Orthodox beliefs that WCG proclaimed they held at the time of their new changes. Along with much double talk (which is typical with WCG ministers), Harry, in this correspondence, said he was: "not a believer in heaven as commonly depicted by many churches"; "the term 'son of God' however, in the cultural setting of the day was meant something different than how we read it today, and perhaps something different to those who lived prior to the writing of the Gospels"; "My personal view of the Spirit is that it is the love of God...This view of mine is not a mainstream view; " "I am not a believer in hell. I am a believer in final extinction, if you will. Everyone will have their fair and equitable (actually more then fair and more than equitable) chance to accept Jesus at some juncture. Those who refuse will simply no longer be." 

His response made no sense doctrinally. The worst part was that he seemed totally unclear about who Jesus really is, along with no clarity on the Holy Spirit either. Has Harry been teaching his congregation his "alternate" belief system, which sounds almost identical to what Herbert Armstrong taught members?

At one point this former member tried to see if Harry would reveal he was a minister and affiliated with the Worldwide Church of God. She said: "You seem to know a lot about the bible. If you don't already teach a bible class, I'm sure you could." However, Harry still did not reveal he was a minister, or that he was affiliated with the Worldwide Church of God, only replying: "Thank you for your kind words. I am glad I was able to assist your increased understanding."

Finally Harry referred this former member (whom he didn't know was a former member) to the book, Theology for the Community of God, which was written by a liberal. He ended the email correspondence by nicely saying, "Thank you for the honor and privilege to be part of your life in this way. You are free to call me on the toll-free number if you choose to do so, or continue in email. You are also free to tell me I'm all wet in my responses. But it has been a privilege to share with you, and look forward to certainly serving you in the future, if that be your choice."

In comparing these words of Harry's with those he sent to Adrianne (above) one can see that he does not come across so gracious when someone reveals they are a former member of WCG and starts asking him some pertinent questions such as those referring to WCG abuse, psychological harm inflicted, WCG history revision, etc.

Jackie's input on the minister's emails about his beliefs:

I am constantly amazed by anyone who thinks they only have the answers and have to tell you what to believe. They [WCG] didn't have the guts to tell D. James Kennedy¹⁰ what they really believed and they don't have the guts to tell you who they are really affiliated with¹¹ and they think they have to lie to win "converts." It's that kind of lying that told me they were lying all along when I finally left.

Jackie

Input from Will (former WCG member):

He certainly is a lying, deceptive individual from what I've seen. Over the years I learned that is the way with WCG ministers. When I would learn I had been lied to by them, I found it disconcerting. I understood that God doesn't cause confusion.

And, so they go on and on.

Will

Be sure and read Will's first letter to ESN regarding this article: The Member Who Turned Out to Be a Pastor

Jackie's final comments:

What strikes me as I read this article is if you try to speak the truth in the "new" WCG then where would it go? Nowhere. I've already been there on that one. And then this guy assumes that people don't understand what they've basically always been taught. Interesting to me how the WCG "allows" Harry to have his own opinion while still expecting other doctrines to be the same. Confusion all around. It also assumes that nobody there [in the WCG] is really saved and needs their help. Or that anybody knows anything but him.

Jackie

Final comments from ESN:

It is no secret that the WCG allows members to hold "differences" in belief, but for Harry to say "Whatever differences I have, I don't generally [sic] speak of them, but I do get the chance to educate those in the congregation where I attend" implies he is teaching his flock these same beliefs (which are almost identical to HWA's belief system). This is how Harry, the associate pastor, "educates" those in his congregation. How many other WCG ministers are doing the same thing today? Some former members have suggested that perhaps WCG needs two doctrinal statements, one for what they say is Orthodoxy and one showing the HWA doctrines (and mindset) that still remain within their organization.

Info compiled by Exit & Support Network™
May 14, 2004
Last updated June 10, 2004

*Worldwide Church of God is now considering a name change. Read: Worldwide Church of God is Changing Their Name. 

Footnotes:

¹ The phrase "called into" is a WCG buzzword meaning when members joined the Worldwide Church of God which they felt was "God's true Church." There are several other words this member used (either in his correspondence or through his ministry) such as "God's way," "Kingdom of God" (which Herbert Armstrong said was the "born family of God"), "wavelength" and "the Church" (i. e., Worldwide Church of God). 

² The Incredible Human Potential by Herbert W. Armstrong

³ This ministry, like many others today, is into selling Jesus T-shirts, jewelry, stickers, etc., although they say it is for churches to use for fundraising purposes.

⁴ "Get with the program" was another buzzword, or WCG jargon, for those members who were not embracing the WCG way or HWA's teachings.

⁵ This is also known as spin control, something deceptive leaders are very adapt at.

⁶ Langberg, Diane Mandt, Counseling Survivors of Sexual Abuse, p.171.

⁷ Ibid, p. 176.

⁸ In November 2004 the Worldwide Church of God moved its headquarters from Pasadena to Glendora, California. (Pasadena Star-News, October 25, 2004) Read letter to ESN concerning this. By May 2006 all their offices were moved to Glendora. (Together May-June 2006).]

⁹ All email correspondence is in ESN's files.

¹⁰ On 4-30-96 and 5-1-96 Tkach Jr. was interviewed on D. James Kennedy's Christian radio program Truths that Transform and said they [WCG] believed in heaven and hell. [Note: D. James Kennedy died September 5, 2007 at the age of 76.]

¹¹ Many WCG congregations across the country have now given their churches a new name; e.g., including the words "Community," "Christian," "Grace," "Congregation," "New Life," etc. But if they advertise in the paper they add that their fellowship is "a WCG congregation." How many outside Worldwide Church of God would have a clue about what "WCG" stands for?

Transformed by Christ (A Review of Worldwide Church of God's Book) (shows the history revision and how WCG has whitewashed Herbert Armstrong)

Letter to Worldwide Church of God, Philippines (On Apostasy--A Radical Proposal) (Reveals the disturbing direction WCG is headed doctrinally; includes New Age authors WCG has endorsed. This Oct. 2006 letter was later forwarded to over 300 WCG ministers, including those at Headquarters. Includes May 2007 email reply from author Brian Flynn to a WCG Philippine deacon (Cc to ESN), concerning how we must be discerning concerning false teachings coming into the church.)

Is Worldwide Church of God Still Holding on to Some of Herbert W. Armstrong's Doctrines?

Letter Exposing Outright Lies, Abuses and Sociopathic Behavior (Tells the truth about what was really going on at the time of the WCG changes)

Dialectical Materialism (double-speak, the combining of opposites) [offsite link]

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