Answering Someone Who Believes God Gave His Truth to Herbert Armstrong

Following is a conversation between a former member of PCG, who believes HWA had God's truth revealed to him, and two people in ESN who have replied. We hope it will be helpful for those any are searching out these things.

(IDHWA stands for "In defense of HWA.")

Also see at end: Questions to Ask Yourself.

IDHWA: We reared kind, considerate, loving children who loved us and we were close because of what we learned about the scriptures from Mr. HWA

ESN: You raised kind, considerate, loving children "in spite of" what HWA taught. For that you should be considered fortunate, as we have seen many who were raised under the teachings of HWA who did not fare so well. Also, what explanation is there for children who turned out loving and kind and had a close family, but who never heard of HWA?

IDHWA: ...and we proved all that he taught.

ESN: Did you prove what the Bible taught or did you simply look up the proof texts that were furnished? If false teachings didn't appear as truth, no one would be deceived.

IDHWA: Our children never got into drugs, sex or alcohol, as we studied the Bible lessons and learned to treat others as we wanted to be treated.

ESN: Again, you are fortunate in this regard compared to many others, including ministers and their families, where the children did end up with drug habits. One minister who worked at headquarters comes to mind. His son's death was directly attributed to his cocaine use earlier in life. It would also be interesting to have your children answer for themselves regarding their WCG experience and what they did and didn't do, or what they wanted to do.

IDHWA: After Mr. Joseph W. Tkach took over, we got off track

ESN: If one is already upside down, and another turns right side up, he is perceived as the one who has gone upside down.

IDHWA: ...and we were desperate to find the one who was teaching the commandments.

ESN: You were "desperate" because that was the conditioning you had been subjected to and internalized as an unyielding "truth."

IDHWA: Mr. Flurry deceived us with the use of Mr. HWA's name and some of his articles.

ESN: Mr. Flurry teaches the same things HWA did, so if you conclude Flurry deceived you, then how can you declare HWA didn't deceive you?

IDHWA: So we trusted him (Flurry). Never again!

ESN: But aren't you saying that you are going to keep your trust in HWA as a result, still putting your trust in a man?

IDHWA: We will study the scriptures and prove things as he taught us how.

ESN: Your statement is revealing. You will continue to prove what you were taught to prove.

IDHWA: You may have experienced bad ministers out in the field who were not following HWA as he followed Christ.

ESN: You assume that bad ministers were not following HWA's teachings, when in fact they were. Everything is deflected off the source and blame put anywhere and everywhere else.

IDHWA: We suffered in the PCG not in the worldwide under Mr. HWA.

ESN: In other words, you were fortunate to not be abused while HWA, but your "luck" did not continue through your experience in the PCG.

IDHWA: Which of the commandments would you do away with?

ESN: Which commandments do you presently not keep, considering there are 613 commandments, to which you feel you only need to keep less than about 20 of them? How did you determine which ones you didn't have to keep?

IDHWA: Each commandment brings tremendous fruit to one's life, if kept.

ESN: How does refraining from murder produce fruit if the one who refrains from murder still harbors hatred in his or her heart in regards to someone? If one's animals were to rest on the Sabbath also, what fruit benefited the animals?

IDHWA: We did not learn to keep God's commandments out of fear

ESN: What do you believe happens to you if you do not keep them?

IDHWA: ...but out of a deep respect for the wonderful Saviour, Jesus Christ who went through that horrendously horrible death that I might be reconciled to God and be forgiven

ESN: Then, using this logic, why not practice sacrifices in order to show God you are willing to suffer loss and sacrifice for His sake, showing your gratitude in this manner?

IDHWA: ...and be healed when needed. I and my family have personally experienced several healings when needed,

ESN: What of those who did not receive healings, and even died? Are you prepared to declare it was a result of their lack of faith, thereby bringing accusation against them? Are you sure that healing is in the Atonement, or was it our sins and trespasses that we were healed of? (I Peter 2:24: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed"). (Healing and sickness are commented on in our article: What Were the Lies and What is the Truth?)

IDHWA: ...and have corresponded in the WCG with many who were healed when needed through the WCG newspaper.

ESN: And that same WCG newspaper (the past Worldwide News pen pal section) listed many who were sick and in need of healing. (I corresponded with many of them.) Why weren't they healed? Along this line of reasoning, how many were healed of blindness from birth? How many had broken bones immediately repaired? How many deaf were made to hear? How many were raised from the dead? (not resuscitated) My wife came back from the dead; without any outside intervention, and she and I were no longer keeping the letter of the law such as the Ten Commandments. Can the devil revive the dead, or only God?

IDHWA: I have also seen people who did not "get it."

ESN: And what is "it"? What the followers of HWA do not get is that everything revolves around faith, and not law. The Law came into being because the people were faithless. Once faith came, the law (the substitute), was no longer needed. "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator" (Galatians 3:19). "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [paidagōgos] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:23-25).

IDHWA: I know those who did not live God's way. They just seemed to play the social game of "church" and their children do not believe in God, because they saw their parents just play church and not live God's way of life at home the rest of the week. They did not realize their children saw it and it did not impress them.

ESN: You have resorted to making an accusation against those whose children did not turn out like yours, contrary to the commandment of Jesus Christ regarding making such accusations. This must mean that if a minister's child turned out bad, it was because the minister really wasn't doing as he should, but was just "playing" church, etc. And what about the children who couldn't measure up to all the rules no matter how hard they tried?

I could say something about the sons of Garner Ted (GTA), which would say something about GTA, and I could say things about GTA that would necessarily reflect on HWA, placing HWA in the category here that you disparage.

IDHWA: Did they pray with their children? I don't know, but if God had been in their daily lives the children would have had hope and would have turned to God for help, not sex, alcohol or other drugs to relieve their pain.

ESN: When you grew up, did you endure daily lectures (and in many cases daily beatings) to enforce God's way of life upon you? Have you read some of their testimonies? On the other hand, maybe some of these children turned to these things because there wasn't anything there but carnality. GTA turned to sex. What then, according to you, does this say about HWA?

IDHWA: Then as their children, one by one, had tremendous problems, it was easier to blame Mr. Armstrong than to admit they really did not live God's way of life.

ESN: Therefore, HWA did not live God's way of life, seeing as his son was a confirmed adulterer and immoral person. Even members in the old WCG knew about GTA's infidelity, but did they conclude as they would with anyone else that it would be evidence HWA was not following God? No, they maintained a double standard here.

IDHWA: It's the old blame game. Carnally, we all want to blame someone else for our sins. Look at Eve.

ESN: You have just finished blaming parents for how the children turned out in WCG/PCG, claiming they were just playing church and not living "God's way of life."

IDHWA: We were not perfect by a long shot,

ESN: And trying to keep the law proves it. It is a "fruitless" endeavor because the Law demands perfection.

IDHWA: ...but when we made a mistake we told our children we needed to improve and we repented and went on.

ESN: You "repented" by turning again to the law, and not turning to God. This makes the law another god besides THE God.

IDHWA: I would not trade what I learned from Mr. HWA for all the money in the world.

ESN: Neither would I. I learned how easily people can be deceived, and as a result of that deception, went about learning the truth of God and His gospel, and have a much greater appreciation of that understanding.

IDHWA: He was a man, he made mistakes, and when shown, he repented and changed. Look at the men after God's own heart--look at David, look at Moses. They all had human frailties, problems. But their hearts were right with the Creator.

ESN: And look at how God punished them when they stepped over the line, even though they followed God. HWA showed he was not a man of God based upon the criteria put forth by Christ concerning those who would truly represent Him. You can either judge one who claims to represent God based upon Christ's criteria, or reject Christ's criteria and use this Old Testament construct. Moses did not lead Christians. David did not lead Christians.

And if HWA was shown his sins and he repented, or not, how would you know either way? Could a deceiver hide the facts? Would a deceiver attempt to show himself a "humble" man by feigning repentance? GTA "continually repented" but the fruit stayed the same? More is covered in our article: "None of God's Servants Were Perfect" (for those who like to use this reasoning).

IDHWA: We have seen in the PCG, a man who has known from the beginning that he was creating a "cult," deceptively leading people to insanity. Minister after minister has tried to help him repent but he just puts them out. He has no intention of changing. He has a business and he is making money at the expense of God's poor sheep who are under strong delusion. They think he is following what HWA taught and they are being led into Tribulation.

ESN: Are you sure you are referring to Gerald Flurry and not Herbert Armstrong? Flurry is doing exactly what HWA did in this regard; putting out those who pointed out to him he needed to repent of abuses. What do you think of HWA renting a yacht for a day for $50,000? (For other excesses read: Herbert W. Armstrong: The Rich Apostle.)

IDHWA: We knew something was wrong as we saw the bad fruit from that organization, especially the sad, sad people that have cut off their families.

ESN: HWA required people to sever relationships with family also.

IDHWA: No, we will be forever grateful for the joy that we experienced fellowshipping with God's people with regard to the Bible truths that we were taught and read in God's word.

ESN: Your joy is fellowshipping with an elite group of people who feel they "only" are God's true people and they "only" have the Bible truths. A deceived person doesn't know they are deceived.

IDHWA: I can use a concordance now, thanks to Mr. HWA and research God's very thoughts on any subject I desire...

ESN: You can also use a computer and the internet to see what others have to say about HWA's teachings and him personally.

IDHWA: ...and God's Holy Spirit guides me into all truth as the scripture says.

ESN: Don't all religious cults claim to have the truth? How can you tell which one has the truth? If you don't have God's Holy Spirit, you will be led astray, and God does not give His Spirit to those who believe a false gospel. So what is the gospel, and can you prove it with Scripture? (See: What is the Gospel?)

IDHWA: What a privilege to have direct access to the mind of Christ and we learned it all from God the Father and Jesus Christ through Mr. HWA.

ESN: Satan's ministers appear as ministers of righteousness, and what they teach will appear as truth, and quite appealing at that. (II Corinthians 11:14-15)

IDHWA: Too many people were following the "Man" HWA.

ESN: Too many still do. Do you notice that throughout your correspondence you have continually made reference to HWA, the man? There is no man between us and God save the "Man in the glory." "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (I Timothy 2:5).

IDHWA: He told us never to follow him.

ESN: HWA was heard to say (especially at Feast sites; i. e., in 1972 in Penticton, BC, Canada), "Follow me! I will lead you into the Kingdom!" But he stated it both ways--follow him as he followed Christ, and then he redefined what Christ taught, even as a false prophet was prophesied by Christ.

IDHWA: To only follow a man as he follows Christ.

ESN: All false prophets will make this same claim, misleading people who think they are following Christ. You will know them by their fruits. (Questioning HWA's fruits)

IDHWA: People had a religion. They were following a fleshly human being.

ESN: And many still do.

IDHWA: We followed God, who was using Mr. HWA to teach us God's truth.

ESN: Then you followed a man and a man's interpretation of "truth."

IDHWA: I think that's the big difference. People want a man to lead (like they wanted Saul).

ESN: Are you needing a man to lead you? You rely on a man (HWA) to interpret Scripture for you, instead of solely relying on the Holy Spirit to help you to understand the Scriptures

IDHWA: We want to follow God, not a man. And the Bible is the big key.

ESN: Then why do you say it was HWA who brought you "God's truth"? Quit believing what a man told you the Bible says and read the Bible for what it says about itself and what it teaches, it being the Word of God in print.

IDHWA: It is the mind of Christ and that is what we taught our children. To follow God's word.

ESN: Which you did through the filtered lenses of HWA.

IDHWA: We have peace, and it can only be had with God.

ESN: There is a false peace, as well as everything else of God that can be counterfeited. True peace comes when the veil comes off our eyes and we see Christ and His gospel of grace.

By W. H. and D. W.
Exit & Support Network™
October 3, 2006

Questions to Ask Yourself:

1. How much understanding of Scripture did you have prior to your involvement with the group you are in and the teachings, or handed down teachings, of Herbert Armstrong?

2. Don't you think that one who didn't have much background in Scripture, and have the proper background and was knowledgeable in the methods of Biblical Scholarship, would be most likely misled and deceived?

3. Do you suppose that a deceived person would be thoroughly and completely convinced they are right and all others were wrong?

4. If there is safety in a multitude of counselors, why were you taught and convinced to stay away from the writings of true Biblical scholars who have spent their entire lives studying Scripture, opting instead for the teachings of men with no real background in the higher education of religion?

Where Do I Find the "One True Church"?

My Position in Christ (accepted and secure forever)

Articles on Offshoots & Splinter Groups of Worldwide Church of God

Articles For Those Who Were Emotionally and Spiritually Abused

Back to Questioning Herbert W. Armstrong (was he who he said he was?)